Tonight, I’ve been grading college application essays that I received from students yesterday, and I’ve noticed a pattern that I’ve encountered before during student teaching, so I have to say something about it. If you are a student in an English or writing course, I suggest you read closely.
The way I look at courses that focus on writing, your instructor has some expertise in the area that you lack. This goes for both secondary and post-secondary courses, as far as I’m concerned. When your instructor asks for an early draft to provide feedback for you, it is not merely an exercise in futility: he or she wants to help you improve your writing and has provided comments to facilitate that end. We don’t just spend time reading drafts and writing comments for our health; certainly, it’s one of those time-consuming tasks that we don’t really savor (even if you’re like me and actually enjoy giving feedback – it’s still tedious to read several essays).
So what should you probably do if someone who is supposed to know better than you provides information that would help you improve your draft? (Hint: this is not a trick question.)
But what do I frequently get instead? Students who turn in final drafts that are virtually identical to the earlier drafts, despite having been given feedback that should have resulted in major changes to the piece.
Why does this happen? I can come up with several reasons, none of which really seem acceptable:
- Laziness or lack of motivation. I hate to attribute this to plain ol’ laziness, but it’s not out of the question, and certainly I’ve seen other evidence of that at least in some of my current students. And I’ve already had motivation problems with one student in particular – maybe this one isn’t too far off. It’s disappointing if so, though.
- Apathy about grades. This one is related to motivation but in a different way: rather than having a lack of motivation to do work, students might simply see the cost-benefit ratio of doing the necessary work vs. the grade payoff as a waste of time (because they would do more work with only a small benefit to them, especially for the seniors since the course is weighted). Again, I’ve seen this, although more in classes other than one I’m grading essays for.
- Overconfidence in own writing ability. I’m not going to underestimate the extent to which some of my students might just think they know better than I do about good writing (or at least good writing for them) and take my comments as something to consider but not necessarily follow. That might be true to a degree, but for crying out loud, I’m still the one grading the final draft! And again, I have had training in writing theory and instruction, and (although they don’t know this) have even been recognized for my writing. And the assignments I give out are my own creation! Why wouldn’t I have an idea of what I want (or in the case of the college application essay, what admission people are looking for)? At any rate, I would think that it would be prudent, if you think that your way is really better, to at least talk to your instructor and try to get some more direct answers, maybe defend your position. If I give you feedback and no changes result, I am probably going to assume that you ignored my advice for no good reason unless I have reason to believe otherwise, such as a conversation about the writing choice.
There might be others, perhaps. Still, I am somewhat irritated at seeing this trend and hope that eventually it will wane.
(Teachers of writing, please confirm this for me! I could use the comfort right now…)
Docere Est Discere 
September 26, 2009 at 9:26 am
I agree with all three of those, but I’d add one. Sometimes, I think, they don’t incorporate the feedback because they simply don’t understand it and how to do it. That’s been fairly rare for me, but I have found on occasion that when I ask a student why they didn’t revise for whatever, they look at me blankly and I can tell our original conversation had no impact whatsoever. Maybe they weren’t listening, maybe they just didn’t get what I was saying, but that’s something to consider too.
September 26, 2009 at 3:46 pm
You’re right, I hadn’t considered that some students might just not understand what I mean or how to pull it off. That still seems like a good reason to talk to a writing instructor, though, rather than just ignoring it altogether, but it is a viable alternative to the other three, certainly.
October 9, 2009 at 8:31 am
Mr. B,
I am so happy to have found your blog through Instructor magazine. I am a college professor teaching Intro to Special Education and I also supervise student teachers. I am going to assign making a response to this blog as a reflection for the week. My students may appreciate this since they won’t have to cite another source (using APA format) which I require for their other reflections.
I’ll also share an experience observing a student teacher yesterday. The student teacher was in charge of a resource room and planned a lesson in the computer lab introducing Moodle. His students were very activly angaged as they searched and clicked but then they came to the requirement to actually WRITE a response about how they READ their textbooks. You could easily observe the body language change until one student asked, “Mr. R can I write why I DON’T read my textbook.” To my student teacher’s credit his response was, “Certainly, that might be even better.”
Later as we discussed the lesson the student teacher expressed his frustration in getting what he called “the Google Generation” to write anything substantial or containing more letters than necessary in texting. A sad commentary but shows the need for teachers like you (and this student teacher) still working to instill a love (or at least a small desire) of writing well.
October 9, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Mr. Post, thanks for the kind words (I’m happy that Instructor recognized me!). I can hardly fathom that something I wrote would be used as a text to respond to – that’s a great privilege.
I can sympathize with the student teacher’s experience; I frequently have struggles with students not wanting to write anything, even when I give them an informal assignment where the specific language doesn’t matter as much as a formal essay. I haven’t encountered a whole lot of the minimization of texting (other than the occasional “IDK”), but I do know that my students seem to write very infrequently. I don’t know if this is exclusive to this generation, though; in fact, I suspect the opposite. Still, it’s so important to cultivate writing, as you note, and that’s a struggle (especially for struggling readers and writers).
October 13, 2009 at 5:45 pm
I agree with what this article talks about. I am going to school to be a teacher but I havn’t had to grade any papers yet. However, I can imagine how frustrating this could be. It seems to me that sometimes students just don’t think that we as teachers care about them, but as if we are out to get them. I also feel that sometime a student might not change their paper, because they feel that it is their paper and this is what they wanted to say in their paper. I can relate to students who might feel that way, because it is frustrating to work hard on something just to have a teacher tell you to change it. It is a totally different story though if a student is doing it just to be lazy or because they just do not care. Unfortunatley, teachers cannot just give up on their students, because they need to see that we do care about them and we do want them succeed.
October 17, 2009 at 3:14 pm
While reading this article, I felt quite connected to it. As a college student as well as an occasional teacher aide, I can easily relate to the frustration that Mr. B is experiencing. As a teacher aide, I get the opportunity to read students work which always happens to aggravate me only because of the many simple mistakes they make. However, after the teacher corrects their mistakes they still do not fix them. Is it because they are lazy or is it because they are confused and simply don’t understand what is being asked of them? Well, as a student myself, I can say that I too sometimes do not fix my paper the way my instructor has asked of me only because I feel it is my paper and the way I wrote it is great. However, even if I don’t make corrections I do take them into consideration. Therefore, it is difficult to say exactly why students do not make changes to their work based on their teacher’s comments. In other words, I believe that it is a student’s choice on whether or not they should make corrections in order to improve their writing skills.
October 18, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I find this article covers an interesting topic to discuss. As a student who is studying to be a future teacher, I can imagine how frustrating it is when students do not follow the teacher’s helpful comments on papers. I believe teachers are there to help students, not to make their life more difficult. By providing commentary on students’ writing, teachers are trying to help students become better writers and succeed in the class. The three reasons Mr. B discusses on why students do not change their writing are all true. As a student, I sometimes just really do not care to fix my paper. Other times, I feel that if I fix my paper with the suggestions the teacher gave me, the grade I will receive after re-writing the paper is not worth the additional effort. In addition, sometimes I feel that my writing is fine how it is and the teacher is just being too picky. In general, I take into consideration all the comments the teacher makes about my writing, but usually only fix the things I believe must be changed. Overall, I hope students can see that teachers provide feedback only to help each student, and that teachers will understand that sometimes the student thinks that his or her paper is ok the way it was to begin with.
October 19, 2009 at 11:37 am
This is an interesting topic. I have fallen into all three of these reasons. I have other things to do and just simply do not get to the fixing of my paper. This also has to do with the feeling that my paper is fine the way it is. Also not fixing it will still get me a ok grade. I understand the frustration the teacher must go through. Putting all that time into reading each one to, in the end, see their hard work not even considered. I think both sides need to see eachother’s points and communicate how they are feeling.
October 19, 2009 at 11:46 am
I do believe in what the topic about how students do not want to make their papers better. Some students do believe they desire more than they should get in their lives. They believe their work is perfect the way it is and should not be touched. Another reason as in the article was the lack of motivation in fixing the paper after the teacher has told them what to fix. I think students should have the respect towards their teachers which help them with their paper to do the little things to help their grade in the class. The little things in the classroom do add to help these students in the future.
October 19, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I do agree with all three of these as well. I feel that it is not only laziness, apathy about grades, and overconfidence in their own writing but it is also the lack of knowledge they might know about the topic. I feel that if a writer does not know a lot about the topic they kind of choose not to give a full effort into their writing. A couple of days ago I was reading over my sister’s paper about penguins. Well, after I was done reading her paper I could tell that she a) didn’t know much about the topic and b) she really didn’t care about the topic. Of course, I had her go back and had some more information about her topic and take some things out. I just feel to be ale to write a good paper, you must have a lot of knowledge about the topic to at least make it interesting to read.
October 19, 2009 at 3:18 pm
This is a good topic. I think that this should be given to every English class. I myself have fallen into all 3 of these categories at some point, so I can understand where the students writing these papers are coming from. As I am studying to be a teacher now, I’m starting to see from the teacher’s point of view. It’s not fair for teachers to spend all that time and energy trying to help a student who, in the end, won’t change anything anyway. Here at Trinity we have a writing center and often the teachers require the students to go there and recieve help. It’s part of their grade. I think this is a really great way to get students to do something with the feedback they recieve from teachers.
October 19, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Mr. B, I agree with what you have stated in your Blog with regards to Laziness or lack of motivation, Apathy about grades, and Overconfidence in own writing ability. Although I am a student and have not graded any papers, the main thing I have encountered is large groups of kids showing laziness and lack of motivation when it came to writing papers. Many students would not read over their work, or even check what words the spell checker would place for misplaced words.
All in all Mr. B I think this is a great Blog and I will be using your tips for when I am an Educator.
October 19, 2009 at 3:22 pm
I truly believe that once teachers give back a paper that has comments on it many students do not agree with some of the comments. The student who puts in the time and effort to do a paper, and does not get the results that he or she wants, puts the student in defense mode and causes them to be stubborn and not fix the paper. Is this smart of the student? No probably not because it’s going to hurt the grade, but he is expressing that he believes in his work. Now if the teacher would have had a small conference and try to explain to the students where he or she went wrong the student might realize that the teacher is just trying to help them improve and actually change the paper. Some students also feel certain teachers don’t ever want to just say great job, but has to critique no matter how good or bad. Teachers must remember that not every student is perfect, and we must praise them in order for them to succeed.
October 19, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I definitely agree with you, Mr. B, and I also feel your pain, as I will also been spending a good part of my life grading papers. I would argue that laziness is most likely the cause of students not taking the extra time to really proofread their papers. Either that, or maybe they feel since they had to already write the paper once, why do it again when assignments are due for other classes? Yes, the amount of work students need to complete for classes can be overwhelming, but I feel the more a student puts into his work, the more he will get out of it. I feel it is almost my calling to instill a love for writing in future students, so I absolutely agree that something needs to be done to improve student attitudes towards English.
October 19, 2009 at 4:12 pm
And while I comment on an article about perfecting papers, I myself make a grammatical error!
October 19, 2009 at 4:22 pm
But fortunately, this isn’t a formal writing assignment, right? Don’t worry, it happens!
October 19, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I agree with all of the three reasons as to why students don’t make changes to their paper. At times a lot of students will do what is acceptable to get by and get a good enough grade. A lot of times we do this because we have other things due in other classes. Also, as a student I know that I spend a lot of time writing my papers so when a teacher writes a lot of comments and wants me to change things I get frustrated because I felt that what I wrote was good.
October 19, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Looking at the three major topics, I sadly can fit myself under each of these numbers. A majority of the reasons why many students fall under these categories, is because they have many other activities and assignments going on. Although the advice and remarks are beneficial for a papre, sometimes students just do not have the time to perfect their mistakes. Even though having students who can perfect their mistakes on all papers would be nice, it will not necessarily happen all the time, because of the other teachers that decide to have their homework due on the exact same day.
October 19, 2009 at 8:39 pm
I have written many papers, as I am a sophomore in college. I also am very grateful when a teacher is willing to read a draft of our work before the final grade. However, it often works against me for several reasons. While I believe that laziness is a big part of this, sometimes I finally get done writing a draft and am so relieved that I find it very difficult to go back to fix mistakes. I recognize that fixing the things that the Professor suggested would be helpful and very good for my grade, I often lose the motivation to go back to the paper and revise. I usually do, but often I run out of time or have other assignments that I need to start, and revision gets put at the bottom of my priority list. I think that this is true for many of my peers as well.
October 19, 2009 at 9:59 pm
I definitely agree with your reasons as to why students don’t make changes or improvements to their work. For me English has always been my favorite subject, and it always feels so good to hand in a rough draft because you feel as if you’re already done with the assignment. Then you get your paper back and its got notes all over, and you realized you’re no where near finished. This is where all your factors as to why students don’t improve their papers when they get the chance come into play. As I myself transition from being a student going into teaching, I see now how this can get frustrating because you want your students to do the best they can. You didn’t just mark a handful of essays for nothing, you want your students to take it all into consideration so they can learn and grow.
October 20, 2009 at 2:08 am
Mr. B,
I definately agree with your perspective. I have fit in all three categories. On different occasions, I have been lazy, unmotivated, or stubborn and stuck in my ways. Maybe one way you could motivate your students to make changes to their papers is by giving a rough draft grade and a final grade. However, I do understand that this makes more work for you. Do your students read your blog? Maybe if they knew how frusterated you were, they would take your suggestions to heart and know that you are only trying to help them reach their full potential. Thank you for sticking with teaching despite the frusterating moments and for posting your thoughts online so we can learn from them!
October 20, 2009 at 7:02 am
No, no, I don’t tell my students about the blog, in part because I use this space on occasion to talk about them (in vague terms that won’t violate their right to privacy, of course). I have told them in class about this frustration, though, so they can’t claim ignorance the next time a major writing assignment rolls around.
My philosophy on writing is generally that there is usually room for improvement on even the best drafts, and I promote student revision through a end-of-semester portfolio grade where students can get points back for continuing to improve. The reason I don’t give a rough draft grade (other than for completing it so I can leave feedback) is that it would seem to penalize those students who still have a lot more revision to do, and that’s not how I want to approach writing. On this last assignment that I wrote about above, I did give extra credit for submitting a second draft, which only a few students took advantage of. Not coincidentally, those were the students that were conscientious enough to put a lot of work into their writing, and their final drafts were some of the best. Students who care about submitting a good final draft will inevitably produce better end results than the students who just want to get it done and move on – that’s the way things are, and it’s hard to change and get students more motivated to do well. I think publication is a good route to go with that, which is why the National Day on Writing (today!) is a good vehicle for that.
Thanks for the comment!
October 20, 2009 at 11:39 am
I see your point, however, I have had a similar situation in one of my classes this semester. Where you see the teacher perspective, I see the student. In my class we were asked to generate a paper over the entire semester and are doing so by generating responses to questions every few weeks. When the professor hands them back and I see my grade of 20/25 and the only note on the paper is “Well what about this” or, “Think of it this way.” That to me is not what a paper should be. If the professor wants us to create our own paper based of our own ideas and then knock our grades because it was not the ideas he/she had in mind for the paper, it is just not fair. Now I could understand if you were making suggestions on grammar or spelling or even a lackluster thesis but changing a student’s path during writing is not only a pain but can bring feelings of disregard on.
October 20, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Mr. B,
To a certain extent I agree with you. Because a lot of times, I can see it that students are just lazy and can careless about the payoff of their grade. Some students only put so much effort into their work, just to pass the class. Although, I feel that it’s a little harder to be lazy in college. I remember during my freshman year, I had to take composition and every paper we wrote, if it wasn’t good enough, we’d have to bring it to the writing center for seek help, as well as re-writing the paper until it meets the standards of our professor. Now, that could just be my professor but I felt that it really helped me improve on my formal writing skills.
On the other hand, there are students who
feels confident about their writings. I think that is something that needs to be dealt with differently, rather than just writing side notes. I feel that the teacher then should talk to the student individually and point out reasons why it’s not good. Most of the time, students don’t take “suggestions” seriously, they tend to take criticisms more.
October 20, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I don’t know about your point on suggestions vs. criticisms; in fact, I think that criticism for some students can be very debilitating in writing and make them feel like they can’t be successful. But on the other hand, I think it’s fairly clear that my comments in general indicate the appropriate changes that should be made, not merely suggestions (insofar as there is really any meaningful distinction between the two).
October 22, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Mr. B,
I think that your point was clearly stated in the quote, “The way I look at courses that focus on writing, your instructor has some expertise in the area that you lack.”
Though I would not say that its an area where all students lack ENTIRELY, the teacher/student relationship is defined by a qualtity of respect where the expression of such is manifested to the student, by the instructor, by taking the time to examine his/her writing. The time, effort, and energy the professor takes responding to or critiquing one’s work says, “I value you as a student and want to see your writing improve.” The very fact that suggestions are made represents an understanding that the student is capable of great things.
The problem with this dynamic is that the respect is not always mutual, there should be a give and take. The propers student response (one which exhibits the respect due the professor), would be to take those suggestions/constructive criticim and thoughtfully consider them. Implement them in your writing and make changes where necessary. This tells the professor that you regard him/her as a worthy,capable individual who intends to see you succeed, and that you intend to deliver.
Unfortunately, this is not always the response–and the reasons could very well have to do with the three positions you mentioned. However, I would like to propose a possible fourth reason (which by no means am I suggesting is the problem in your case). I think mutual respect will only happen if there is a foundation of trust existing between the teacher and the student.
In my experience I only took those suggestions to heart that were from the professors I trusted would give meaningful suggestions. I trusted them because I knew they saw something in me–and my expression of respect was proving them right.
Just as some students disregard suggestions due to lack of trust…likewise, some professors don’t take the time to respond to students” work in a way that displays that they trust the student is competent. Obviously this is not the case with you. Maybe your students would change their writing habits if they knew that you have been recognized for your writing(just a suggestion). You stated that “although they don’t know this” you create the assignments and have also been recognized for your work. Perhaps it could make a difference if this information somehow “bubbled” to the surface? Although I may be in no place to give such advice, I know how I as a student would react to finding something like that out. In my eyes, my professor’s credibility would sky-rocket.
October 23, 2009 at 7:18 am
You make some valid points, Samantha, and let me first start by saying that I try to get comments only on the areas where I think the direction is totally wrong or where the language or structure inhibit understanding. I try not to nitpick on serial commas or dangling modifiers (although I did point one out to a student who had me give feedback on a college application essay) but deal more with improper word choice, lack of transitions, etc. When students could have chosen to do a certain thing, like omitting a comma after an introductory phrase where there is no ambiguity about where the phrase ends and the core of the sentence begins, then I usually avoid making any suggestions about change.
That said, maybe there is a degree to which I should try to elicit more individual student response to me – starting a conversation, if you will. Maybe if I had students turn in a process narrative (something a writing professor did when I was a teaching intern for a first-year college writing course), talking about how they went through the process and why they made some changes and not others from feedback given by peers and myself, then it would be easier on me to see the rationale and a clearer communication of intent. What do you think?